>BN wrote:
>>matus wrote:
>>
>>> I would genuinely be interested to know how
>>> they determined the incarceration rate in other not so open
>>societies,
>>> like communist ones, or tyranical dictator ones, or oppresive
>>> theocracies. E.g. Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, North Korea,
>China, Cuba,
>>> Iraq, Iran, etc.
>>
>>A quick Google finds,
>>
>>http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html
>>
>>And here's the report with the 5.6 million figure,
>>
>>http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/piusp01.htm
>>
>>Oddly enough, while it has all the data from the body of the CSM
>>article, it doesn't appear to have anything to say about US
>>incarceration rates compared to the rest of the world.
>
>I don't see why that is odd, it's the *US* department of
>Justice, not the World Department of justice. They put the
>information together, its up to others to compare it. Which
>is exactly what CS Monitor and the 'home office' does, or at
>least superficially did. Interestingly...
>
>>
>>Google suggests that a common citation for statistics on world
>>incarceration rates is the Home Office's World Prison Population List,
>>
>>http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r188.pdf
>>
>>In which the USA takes the top spot.
>>
>
>Interesting that on page 4, at the bottom, it says
>
>"No information on; Iraq, Afghanastan, Bhutan, Laos, East
>Timor, and North Korea"
>
>And at the end of the paper
>
>"The list has a number of weaknesses. Its lacks information
>on 17 independent countries"
>
>So, in other words, the US has the highest prison population
>in the world, not counting the notoriously worst countries in
>the world, which wont bother telling anyone what their prison
>population is. Not surprisingly, this is not mentioned once
>in the CS Monitor article.
>
>In doing some googling trying to find info on where some of
>the countries that were listed came from, for example vietnam,
>I came across this
>
>http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/G/GENERAL/GENERAL293N.PDF
>
>"But the fact remained that violations of political and civil
>rights, for the most part, were most severe in the countries
>where domestic NGOs were not allowed to operate: China,
>Vietnam, Burma, Bhutan, Brunei and North Korea. Elsewhere,
>there were areas which were also effectively closed to
>domestic and international human rights investigators,
>including East Timor and parts of Irian Jaya, Tibet, and Khmer
>Rouge-held zones of Cambodia."
>
>So where did the prison population figure for Vietnam come
>from, did they just ask the "Peoples Democratic Republic of
>Vietnam" for a figure, and were provided the figure of 77 in
>100,000! But who cares about accuracy, as long as it makes
>the US look bad, right?
>
>Of China, it says
>
>"Wu Shishen, an editor in the domestic news department of
>Xinhua was sentenced to life in prison for selling a Hongkong
>reporter an advance copy of a speech by Party Secretary Jiang Zemin."
>
>"The Chinese government continued to arrest, detain and
>torture peaceful critics and to interfere with freedom of
>expression, association, assembly and religion. Releases of
>dissidents were carefully timed for political impact, as
>exemplified by the release days before the Olympic decision in
>September of writer and editor Wei Jingsheng after over
>fourteen years of solitary confinement."
>
>Etc. etc. The stories go on and on, for vietnam, laos, Burma...
>
>One wonders where they got the figures for Chinese
>imprisonment as well.
>
>
>Michael Dickey
>

[Continuing in that same thread]

> We agree that: Communists are awful. Terrorists are awful.
> Saddam was awful.

Well, let me be the first to welcome you to our minority viewpoint. Glad you can admit it. But don't say 'we agree' unless you mean merely you and I, because other members of this list obviously do not agree with that statement. Because members of this list have argued in favor of anarcho socialism, that the 'good guys' won in indochina, that Kuwait wasn't a legit country because Saddam didn't recognize it, etc. etc. I will continue to repeat that communists, terrorists, and saddam are awful and present evidence supporting that statement until I no longer see such odd statements on this mailing list, or until I come across convincing evidence suggesting the none of those things are awful.

I know my anti-communists and terrorists articles are quite distracting to your 'land of lets only talk about whats wrong with the US' possible vision of this mailing list, but I'm sure recent developments in this list will help to bring about such a vision.

> It's also awful that other things in parts of the world where
> we have a direct influence are awful.

Indeed, it is. At least in the US, though, the things that will get you tossed in jail are pretty well established, documented, and supported by the majority. All one need to is not steal, assault, kill, or deal drugs.

And as far as influence, as an American my vote obviously was able to directly influence the continuation of a murderous tyrannical regime. But this begs the question, is there anything we truly do not have *any* influence on?

>
> >Any link D?
>
> Sorry, that CSM piece was sent to me by someone else, and I
> didn't wish to repost the whole thing in breach of copyright.
>

I wasn't asking for the whole article to be reproduced violating
copyright, I would have liked to seen a link to the article to read more
about the study. I would genuinely be interested to know how they
determined the incarceration rate in other not so open societies, like
communist ones, or tyranical dictator ones, or oppresive theocracies.
E.g. Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, North Korea, China, Cuba, Iraq, Iran, etc.
etc.

Michael Dickey

[A post made to the extropy list]

Uh-oh.

IRAQ Has World's Highest Government Sanctioned Mass Murder Rate

By Concerned humanist
Staff writer of The Humanist Science World Monitor

Excerpt

"More than 300,000 Iraqis are buried in mass graves, according to a new report by the Justice for the world Department released Sunday. With a population of 24 million, that's 1 in 80 people who end up in an unmarked mass grave, the highest government sanctioned mass murder rate in the world. If the current trends had continued, then over the life of the Hussien regime it is likely another 300,000 people would have ended up in these mass graves. The average Kurd had a 1 in 20 chance of ending up on the death end of an IRAQ Government action, while the average Shi-ite had a 1 in 10 chance of ending up murdered."

> Uh-oh.
>
> US Has World's Highest Incarceration Rate
>
> By GAIL RUSSELL CHADDOCK
> Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
>
> More than 5.6 million Americans are in prison or have served
> time there, according to a new report by the Justice
> Department released Sunday. That's 1 in 37 adults living in
> the United States, the highest incarceration level in the world.
>...

One wonders why, even though the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world, its still ranked by non-partisan freedom groups as one of the freest countries in the world? Is this report on the entire world, or post industrialized nations? Is this based on official govt released documents, and if so, should we trust the claims made by oppressive communist regimes who routinely incarcerate or murder political
dissidents?)

Any link D?

27) Atlas Shrugging in Santa Fe
FrontPageMag
by Ed Tinsley

"Earlier this year, Santa Fe passed a law imposing an $8.50 minimum
wage on all businesses in the city with 25 or more workers. The hike
takes effect in 2004, with the wage rising to $10.50 -- more than
double the national minimum -- by 2008. Not only is this the highest
living wage in the U.S.; it is also unrivaled in its impact on
private industry, since most of the 90 or so living-wage laws
nationwide apply only to firms that do business with local
government. ... Wiser New Mexico communities are now taking advantage
of Santa Fe’s folly. Albuquerque and Lincoln County, for example,
have basically hung out 'open for business' signs." (08/15/03)

http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9410